Presidents
Posted: January 11, 2012 Filed under: Uncategorized | Tags: Christianity, church, gay, homosexuality, point loma, religion 111 Comments »Large, suspended signs hang above the streets of San Diego, and, like metropolitan nametags, identify the neighborhoods that sprawl across the Southern Californian city. The one in Kensington is bright pink at night, and when the neon lights up it breathes a rose hue over the evening and bounces off the faces of couples walking their dogs. University Heights has one on a cherry trolley car that sits above my favorite coffee shop, and is prettier in the day, I think. The one in Normal Heights, on Adams Avenue, looks like it belongs outside a 1950’s diner, where the waitresses skate to your table with impossibly balanced trays of soda pop.
I was driving one of our school’s fifteen-passenger vans, because I was the only person with a Class B license, and someone needed to transport the nine student body presidents who had gathered at Point Loma for an annual leadership convention. Every year, the presidents from Loma’s sister schools in Massachusetts, Kansas, Ohio, Idaho, Illinois, Oklahoma, Tennessee, and Alberta came to San Diego to discuss the climates of their respective campuses: what people were talking about, what needed to change, the future of the Church of the Nazarene.
They also came because we have nice beaches, and they don’t.
We had just pulled off the 163 South, and were idling at a red light on University. In front of us, one of these nametags hung—red, with white letters—between two crimson, gold-peaked spires that stood on either side of the street.
“Welcome to Hillcrest,” I said, moving my foot from the brake and gently taking us though the intersection. “This is a fun area: it’s got a great food and art scene, the best coffee shops and used bookstores, and also happens to be the historically gay neighborhood of San Diego.”
You’d have thought I said “boobies” in a seventh grade classroom: the entire car started to giggle. I could see them pushing each other’s shoulders in the rearview mirror. One person put his hand over his mouth, searching for eye contact to affirm his surprise.
“I wonder if we’ll see any guys holding hands,” I heard one of the presidents say. Laughter swelled.
“Hopefully we only see classy gays,” said another, whatever the hell that means. The turn signal clicked like a detonator while I waited for the light to change green. Curious, I chimed in:
“Do any of you have gay students on your campuses?”
“I think we have one,” said the president from Tennessee. She was sitting next to me in the passenger’s seat.
“There’s a table of them that always sits together,” said another.
Near the back, the president from Illinois sat quietly.
“Do you all have any at Point Loma?” said Tennessee. I smirked, like you do before laying down the flush you’ve been holding the whole time.
“Yeah, actually, we do: I’m gay,” I paused. “But I like to think I’m the classy kind.” The air, now painfully pregnant, remained unstirred as I parked the van. I rolled down my window and smiled.
That afternoon, Tennessee talked to her spouse in my friend’s apartment where she was staying. She didn’t know Alissa was in the living room and could hear the entire conversation through the wafer thin walls.
“He’s gay” she whispered, the way people do when they’re afraid even saying the word might taint their pristine spirits. “And he’s the Director of Spiritual Life. I mean, where are we going to draw the lines?”
Late that night, I was siting in my office while some of the presidents were talking in the lobby of our student government suite. The administrators from the schools were staying at a hotel a few miles from campus, and they’d forgotten a briefcase in one of their meetings that day.
“Can you run this over there, Todd?” Allison—the president from Loma—asked. I grabbed the keys, and started down the stairs toward the van.
“Hey, can I come with you?” Illinois called from behind me.
“Yeah, totally. I’ve got 14 seats.”
Driving down the hill away from campus, Illinois spoke.
“I just wanted you to know I get you. Like, I get the whole sexuality thing.” Confused, I asked for clarification.
“What do you mean?”
“I mean, I just get it. Questioning sexuality and stuff. I know what it’s like.” I pressed more.
“I’m still not sure I understand,” I said. He paused, and breathed deeply.
“I’m gay, too.”
We talked about how he hadn’t told anyone yet, and how he wasn’t sure what to think of everything. I told him he needed to break up with the girl he was dating. He promised he would.
“Don’t give up on the church,” I said. “It’s big, and gracious, and there’s tons of space for people like you and me.”
“I won’t,” he said. We sat in the van for two hours before cracking the doors and heading for bed.
Turns out the presidents didn’t know their schools as well as they thought: after they left, I got emails from students at each of the campuses—even Tennessee, students who felt trapped and alone and frustrated and scared.
“You’re not alone,” I promised them all. “Not a bit.”
“Yeah, actually, we do: I’m gay,” I paused. “But I like to think I’m the classy kind.” ……..i wish i could have been there for that…..
Jon-o. It. was.awesome.
“But I like to think I’m the classy kind.”
You would like to think so, but with a Class B TRUCK DRIVER license that may be called into question- mere speculation, of course-
And–sometimes, if I’m not careful–I catch myself wearing tanks. Reptuation shot.
Beautifully written. I was thoroughly entertained and love the message this great story sends:) Thanks for sharing!
Kenny–thanks for reading, brother. Good to hear from you!
A good deal of smirking going on here too. I’m feeling quite mischievous at the moment, in fact …in much the same way I do every time my partner, Rodney, and I sit WITH – as opposed to ACROSS FROM – each other at a restaurant. How I would have loved to have been a fly on the windshield for that traveling conversation, Todd!
Ha! Love it. Thanks for reading, Rick, as always.
This is a great story! I honestly loved reading it! It doesn’t matter because we are all people of God and I think your story really reaches out to help others <3
Miss you Bud! Hope your doing well
Sally–so freaking good to hear from you. Thanks for your kind words. Miss you, friend!
Hey, Todd. I graduated from Loma in 2000, am gay, and am in my last year of seminary right now. This conversation sounds so familiar to me. These moments require a lot of courage and some major mojo to pull off without drawing battle lines. Glad to know there are kindred spirits out there.
No way! That’s awesome. Where are you studying?
I’m at OSIS in NYC right now, but will begin classes at Union Theological in NYC in the fall. It’s been quite the journey! And I’m so moved to know that God continues to do a great work at Pt Loma — even despite itself. The groom pursues his bride. And all that.
Thanks for sharing this story…I wish I had known people like you when I was a student at MANU or NTS. That was many years ago and undoubtedly I did know them but we were likely in denial or deep in the closet. Keep up the good work!
Ty–of course. When we share our stories, fear and shame never win. I’m glad to know you’ve found freedom, as well. Thanks for reading!
We are strengthened when we share our stories for then we understand that we share the journey with other men and women of faith who choose to follow Jesus and not abandon our faith.
One question…okay maybe two. How does one “practice” homosexuality? Do heterosexuals “practice” as well?
Ty–this is exactly why I take issue with talking about the “practice of homosexuality.”
What people are referring to, I’m assuming, when they use this kind of language is sexual interaction. But, we wouldn’t tell a straight person he or she were only straight when engaged in sexual activity; we would affirm their orientation, irrespective of their behavior. What I would appreciate in the conservative Christian community is language that simply acknowledges my orientation as a gay person, and doesn’t qualify it depending on my sexual behavior.
Trust me, he’s not the first gay student body president in “Illinois”.
Yeah, I’m confident of that, as well.
I knew of another gay student body president in “Illinois” ….
The story sounds just like my alma mater…Houghton College
I’m not familiar with Houghton, but I trust it’s an interesting place if it’s anything like Loma.
I’m not going to condemn you to Hell. I want you to know that. From what I can tell from reading this one article (it appeared in a friends FB feed), you seem to have the feelings and urges, but are not actually a practicing homosexual. Like anything that will keep us out of Heaven, the sin is not the temptation, but acting on the temptation. As a straight man who is happily married, I have feelings and urges about women other than my wife. I fight through them, and with God’s help, I overcome them. I hope that’s the case with you and men, and that you’re not saying “it’s OK to be gay,” because it’s not. At least it’s not OK to practice the lifestyle. Jesus tells us this in both the Old and New Testaments. I wish you the best in your struggle, and pray that God continues to help you overcome. God bless!
John, I am, indeed, a practicing homosexual, though I find that term ultimately, unhelpful; one’s sexuality is not determined by physical expression, in my experience. I recognize that you may come from a tradition that interprets the biblical passages in a specific way, one that forbids LGBT people from living full, celebrated lives. However, my ecclesial authority has no issue with my sexual expression, and affords me space–to borrow your language–to practice. I understand that you will likely take great issue with my position, and appreciate your patience and kindness in advance.
“Gold Rush” may be of interest to you, should you want to read more of my thoughts, as well as “Kissing Without Fear.”
Thanks for reading, and I hope you are well.
I do indeed come from “a tradition that interprets the biblical passages in a specific way.” Namely, the way in which it was intended. God’s Word doesn’t change with the times. If it was sin in a 1 Corinthians 6, then it’s still sin today. Jesus’ death on the cross didn’t give us license to sin or freedom to do as we please, and then lean on the crutch of His grace. His grace is there not only to save us from sin, but to be a constant reminder of His sacrifice. If you’re living “the lifestyle,” that is no different than a straight man having sexual relations with a woman he’s not married to. I’ll be praying for you. I don’t know you from Adam, but what I’ve read tells me you’re a pretty good guy. But being a good guy doesn’t give us carte blanche with the mercies of God. They endureth forever, but so His standards and rules. All the best!
Very good response here, Todd. I am proud to see you confronting individuals who read the Bible literally and unscholarly.
I am behind you 100%.
Thanks for the support, John Huff.
It’s always find it interesting that when someone wants to distort something, they attack those who choose not to distort it and interpret it the way its writer intended as being “unscholarly.” I will not distort the Word of God. I will not reword it and remake it fit in with my worldview. If you want to live the homosexual lifestyle, knock yourself out. Have a blast with it. But don’t try to tell people that the Bible is OK with it, or that Jesus gave it the thumbs-up, because neither of those are true. You’re doing the exact same thing that fundamentalist Mormons do when they take multiple “wives” or what the Westboro Baptist Church does with their “God Hates F–s” campaign–you’re perverting Scripture to your own destruction.
God loves us all the way we are, but he accepts none of us the way we are. His grace and mercy demands a change in our minds, our hearts, and our lifestyles. God loves the alcoholic, the porn addict, and the murderer. But he doesn’t accept them in their current state. The gift of salvation is free, but the paradox of that free gift is that we must turn away from our former lives, leaving those things that aren’t pleasing to God in the past.
John White, my primary issue with this rendering of the biblical texts is one of exlusion: if we read the texts this way–that is, with a supposedly unbiased lens, one that meerly ingests the texts uncritically–we are forced to submit to manifold atrocities.
Women cannot lead.
Slaves must submit to their masters.
Divorcees cannot be welcomed into the fold of God.
These are understandings of the world to which I cannot ascribe. Again, I respect that you interpret the texts differently, but to suppose that you are somehow not interpreting is to deny that the act of reading is–in and of itself–and interpretive process. I would push back and say, indeed, you approach the text with a specific hermeneutical and ecclesiological lens, albeit drastically different than mine.
Thanks for inviting conversation.
OK, here’s my issue. If the Bible said something like “To be saved you have to do seven jumping jacks every day and must never willingly watch SpongeBob SqarePants,” then anyone who does not do seven jumping jacks and who willingly watches SBSP would not be saved. That wouldn’t be an interpretation, that would be taking the Word to mean what it says. Now granted, in this instance, I’m using absurdity to make a point, but I hope you get my point. It’s not interpretation to say that when the Bible specifically calls something a sin, then it is sin. Interpretation is when the Bible specifically calls something sin, and we then say, “well, because of cultural differences and the evolution of human thought, that particular item isn’t sin anymore.” Interpretation is saying that the 4-headed leopard in Daniel 7 represents the Four Reichs of Germany or the Greek Empire. Those are guesses, but when God says, “this is sin,” then it IS sin, and there’s nothing you or I can do about. We don’t have the authority to change Scripture. We don’t have the authority to reshape God into a being that pleases us. At that point, we have a golden calf, and we all know how that turned out.
John,
Have you taken into consideration that the Westboro Baptist Church would completely agree with your “non-interpretationistical” interpretation of the scripture? I dare say they would celebrate the way you approach scriptural application so allegorically. Sounds like friendly-fire on your part if you’re going to try and distance yourself from them now though, right? Pick a side, Johnny! God spits out lukewarm water- At least Mormons admit they’re interpreting the Bible-
Just a few quick replies, and then I think I’m gonna leave this alone. To Todd–the Bible doesn’t say women can’t lead. God appointed and anointed several women to lead. The biblical term “slave” usually means servant, or hired hand. You are a “slave” to Point Loma, and I’m a “slave” to my employer. Other forms of slavery, I mean ACTUAL slavery, are showed in, shall we say, a less-than-favorable light throughout Scripture. Divorcees are not unwelcome into the fold of God. The Bible does say that the only valid, Scriptural reason for divorce is adultery, but those who divorce a cheating spouse are still members of the Church in good standing. Even those who were the cheater or those who divorce for other reasons are welcome back.
To Tom – The Westboro Baptist idiots are not interpreting Scripture. They’re just hateful bigots. Their version of God is a god who strikes people down for sinning. My version of God is a God who loves everyone no matter what they’ve done. God loves the gay man and lesbian. He loves them in spite of their choice to live a gay lifestyle, and patiently knocks at the door or their heart, quietly beckoning them to come out of the darkness that they don’t know, or refuse to admit, that they’re in. And again, when something in the Bible is cut-and-dry, like the issue of Jesus being the Messiah or homosexuality being a sin, it is not interpretation to parrot it. When you see a stop sign, we are not interpreting it to say stop. We obey it, or at least we should. Any other “interpretation” of what the sign says will get us a $95 dollar ticket. The judge will not accept the argument, “Your Honor, obviously the stop sign represents an old way of thinking. In this enlightened age, there is nothing wrong with, and in fact the authorities smile upon, people who run stop signs.”
I wish all of you nothing but the best. I’ll keep you in my prayers.
I don’t want you praying for me as long as you use w0rds like choosing a gay lifestyle and cut and dry. Have you no more sense that to believe everyone sees the Bible exactly as you are telling us? If you do so, then someone needs to pray for you because you are delusional.
May God touch your mind, heart, and soul and give you true peace ,John W.
John R Huff II
John W, while you’re busy condemning what you seem confident is sin, I’d like to ask about YOUR lifestyle. Have you ever eaten shrimp, lobster or any other shellfish? Are all your articles of clothing of ONE fabric, or do you practice wearing mixed blend fabrics? Do you ever touch your wife when she’s menstruating, or do you keep a strict adherence to the Biblical hands off rule? Have you ever touched a football? It’s pigskin, after all, and that is also an abomination.
Like John R Huff Jr, spare me your prayers.
Footballs haven’t been made of pigskin for close to 100 years. All of the things you mentioned were made acceptable when Christ completed the Law. Homosexuality was never made acceptable. If it was, then Paul (under the inspiration of the God), wouldn’t have listed it as sin in 1 Corinthians. And I understand where you got your argument. I saw that episode of the West Wing, too. But you, like President Bartlet, are taking was Old Testament-specific, and trying to apply it to the New Testament age. It doesn’t quite work.
John W, you wrote “All of the things you mentioned were made acceptable when Christ completed the Law.” It’s not my place or yours to pick and choose that was made acceptable and what wasn’t. Either “all” of those Levitical prohibitions were lifted, or they weren’t. Peter didn’t specifically mention garments made of mixed fabrics, yet today most Christians see nothing wrong with it. Nor did Paul mention it.
Isn’t it time to stop nitpicking and just let God convict each of us according to HIS plan for our lives?
And while I’ve got your “ear”, please stop comparing homosexuality to murder and rape, kicking puppies, and whatever other “sins” you happen to think of. Statistics prove that most child molesters and sexual offenders are heterosexual males, as were my offenders.
So, deliberate sin will keep a person out of heaven. Like the elderly gossips in my church; like the pastors caught in sexual sin, both straight and gay; like the pastors who put their faith in their ordination, education, and orthodoxy instead of God.
God abolished the Law. Apart from the Law, there is no sin. Where there is no Law, there is no transgression. The Law only brings condemnation. God nailed the written code on the cross. “Therefore, there is no condemnation to those who are in Jesus Christ.”
Take a look at Luke 17:22-37, and zero in on verses 34 and 35. Jesus accepted gay and lesbian believers who were not celibate.
None of those verses give the OK to practice homosexuality. Two men in one bed? Not a gay reference. It was not uncommon in biblical times for men to share a bed for sleep purposes. Since 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 explicitly says that those who practice homosexuality will be lost, your argument is a reach, and and attempt to make God in your own image. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying God doesn’t love gay people. He died for the LGBT community just as much as he died for me or you or anyone else. He has called us to a life of holiness, and made it pretty clear the things that will keep us out of the Kingdom. And yes, deliberate, unrepented sin will keep us out of Heaven. Because at that point, we’ve taken the free gift of God’s grace and thrown it away. We are all sinners, even the saved among us, and the angels rejoice when any sinner comes to repentance.
We’ll likely just have to agree to disagree, John. Again, thanks for your thoughts.
John W, you are reading everything anyone says to you with a strong bias against gay people getting into heaven. We are not the ones to judge. God is, not us. You don’t have any say in wether or not Todd gets into heaven. You don’t have much of a say in wether you get into heaven or not. I don’t have a say in me getting into heaven. But God says we should love one another, and anyone can tell you are anti-gay. If you were gay I’m pretty sure you would “practice” it too.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
New International Version (NIV)
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[a]
We are to love one another. Loving someone means telling them with a humble heart, the truth, so they don’t get hurt. It is important for Christians to confront others living in sin who claim to be Christian. We are to do so with a humble and loving heart and not a “I’m right you’re wrong mentality.”
Good response Ron. I agree. Not so sure it helped though? He He.
Micah, I apologize if I’m coming across that way. What I am is anti-sin. All sin. And I say that recognizing that I stumble and fall down in sin all the time. I’d be saying the same thing if someone was saying “I’m a murderer. I hacked a family to pieces last night and fed their bodies to my cat. I’m a Christian and God approves of my lifestyle.” See any discrepancies in that statement? God named murder specifically as a sin. He did the same thing with same-gender sexual relations. I’m not anti-homosexual. I’m anti-homosexuality. Again, let me give a personal analogy: I have a family member who is in an abusive relationship. I really want to hurt and possibly end the guy that hurts her. But I fight that urge and desire, , because, A) I would go to jail and, B) murder is sin. Instead, I pray daily for God’s strength to overcome, and more importantly, for my family member’s safety.
I understand the desire to ignore parts of Scripture to make it fit my wants and desires, and frankly, my lifestyle. Anyone who says they’ve never tried to justify their own actions when they conflict with the Bible is a liar, myself included. But just because I have failed, that doesn’t mean I’m not going to keep trying after a good dose of repentance. I’m glad you and Todd and folk that share your orientation love the Lord. But having a desire contrary to Scripture is still sin. I’m not the Judge. You’re correct about that. But I’m simply parroting what the Lord Himself said. Thanks for the reply!
Great argument, John W. It’s so true. I’m sure there are hundreds of people reading this right now that would like to put an end to YOU, but they are fighting that urge and desire, because A) they love Jesus and B) they don’t know where you live.
I’m so happy that you have come forward as the ultimate authority on scriptural interpretation. It’s so nice to hear someone deny the fact that the Bible has been interpreted, rewritten and retranslated throughout the course of history. I, for one, am relieved to know that you have God’s original Word in possession and are so willing to share it with us now. I thank you and I’m sure God thanks you.
. John W, you say you are anti sin? Remove the big pebble in your own eye than cast the first stone. Who are you to judge sin anyway. You are not the Pope. God has that priivilege.
And here is something else to meditate on. I find that heterosexual men who are so uptight around and about gay men who like a different gender partner for sex, often are insecure in their own sexuality If they were secure, then it would not be such a morbid concern of theirs. I don’t care what you and your female wife do in bed, Why are you so concerned what two males in a relationship/partnership/companionship do in theirs? Actually it is none of your business John W.
I completely agree with you John Huff. John W, what is the difference between being anti-gay and being anti-homosexual? I’m sorry but I think I understand the meaning of what God says and how to be like God by loving others more than you, and I am only thirteen. You don’t get to choose if you are gay or not.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13
New International Version (NIV)
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[a]
We are to love one another. Loving someone means telling them with a humble heart, the truth, so they don’t get hurt. It is important for Christians to confront others living in sin who claim to be Christian. We are to do so with a humble and loving heart and not a “I’m right you’re wrong mentality.” There is truth in the Word of God. Jesus knows we live in a a world of sorrow and troubles. He loves us so much and just wants us to trust in Him and not lean on our own understanding but he wants us to believe in Him and what His word says.
Proverbs 3:5-6 says
5Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
6In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
We are not to rely on human wisdom or the wisdom of man and what makes sense in are own minds. Rather, we are to rely on the wisdom of God and what His word says. He really does love us so much. I myself mess up so much but I’m learning to trust in the Lord and call upon His name and I can only improve with His help and to just focus less on myself and more on others. I am human and I mess up a lot, but with the Lords help, I am learning to rely on Him and live more of the way He wants me to live every day.
Thank you for being brave enough to tell your story in a way that encourages conversaion, even in the face of certain persecution.
Let us all, no matter our beliefs or disagreements, remember that which we certainly can agree on: Our greatest calling is to love one another, in all things.
Many thanks.
Blessings.
Thanks for the support, Seth, and for reading. Really appreciate it.
People don’t “practice homosexuality”. People are born gay or born straight or somewhere in the middle. You can’t make someone gay and you can’t make a gay person straight.
I’m always amazed at what we as a church have clung to and what we’ve thrown away from the Bible as being cultural baggage. We’re so quick to condemn those we don’t know or understand. So many times the church is willing to write off whole segments of the population because they don’t fit neatly into their understanding of the Bible.
None of us (me, you, your pastor, the General Superintendents of the Church of the Nazarene, the Pope, or any other authority figure in Christianity) can stand and say with authority that their interpretation of the Bible is the final word. I’m sorry but that is arrogant and equating oneself with God himself. I think it is plausible to say,based on my understanding of the Bible and the scholarship of the church throughout history, that in my opinion the Bible means this.
in my opinion, God created some people Gay and God doesn’t make junk.
I couldn’t agree more, Clem. Thanks for the support.
Me too Todd. A Thumbs Up ,son.
Some people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism and kicking puppies and murdering. God made these people, too. So, is God OK with these actions? My intent is not to offend anyone, but I will stand on Truth. No, I am not the arbiter of Truth, nor would I ever try to represent myself as such. But God’s Word is the final authority. God says in BOTH testaments that homosexuality is sin. Sin keeps us from realizing our full relationship with God and ultimately, leads to death. We are called to be separate and holy. We are called to overcome whatever predispositions we may have. Like I said earlier, as a straight man, I am attracted to women other than my wife (she’s the hottest of them all, though!). I was born attracted to women. I will always be attracted to beautiful women. Does that mean that due to God’s grace, it’s OK for me act on those urges and attractions with women other than my wife? Are any of us licensed to continue living lives of sin just because of grace? No! God literally forbids it! That’s Romans 6:1, bosquenorse, as you’ll find by conducting a scholarly search of Scripture.
Hi, John. Here’s my two cents, for what it’s worth.
You have a wife and a pure way you can express your sexuality. Gay people, it seems from the views you express, do not. So, your comparison ends up being less than persuasive to most of the folks here. Similarly, alcoholism and murder harm other people; consensual gay relationships harm no one.
If I may be so bold as to offer a suggestion. I’m coming up on my ordination, so I get a little bolder with offering such things, so please excuse me if I overstep my bounds. I wonder if it might be useful for you to quietly reflect for a moment to see if there is a part of you that believes that there are smart theologians who possibly disagree with your scholarly interpretation of Scripture? Perhaps there is a way for us to allow for and respect differing viewpoints while still maintaining our own?
Nathan – thanks for the reply. The “scholarly” comment I made was a response to a previous post by “bosquenorse” who said that taking the Bible to mean what it says is an “unscholarly” approach to reading Scripture. I wasn’t being trite or pompous. I was pointing out that when some people distort things, they accuse those who aren’t distorting those things of being “unscholarly” or “unlearned.” It was a friendly jab back at bosquenorse.
I don;t need a friendly or an unfriendly jab .Your truth is NOT my truth. Never in a blue moon.
If you read the Bible literally, you are unscholarly and delusional John W. I am not going to remain silent and listen to such mediocrity.
You know absolutely nothing about a sexual orientation and neither did the people in the Bible days. Join the real world with us fags or whaever you wish t\o call us.
I love younger classy males. I am a homosexual and I am a child of God with or without any Bible.
Every hear of the Qadrilateral? Then use your old bible (King James) or whatever, It makes no difference. You are unscholarly,, and biblically ill\iterate and full of hot air.He He A friendly jab for you too, Or unfriendly if you like it that way.
You turn people away with such an attitude. Read some reputable info on what medical doctors, psychiatrists, whateve say. . The understanding of the Bible is ever changing. It is a myth to be read as llterature not with unenlightened dogmatism.
The Law is no more. We homos are ALL ONE .Whether you accept us with our sexual and platonic love for men or not Read The Symposium by Plato. It will most likrly blow you mind.
Did you know that Jesus Christ may\/or may not have been a homosexual? WOW! Too much to grasp John W?
Someone else can reszpond to you. As my gay Brother in the Lord Todd Clayton said to me: “Then I am done.”
Help me Rev. Goetz. You know more about how to deal with this than me.
OK, I promise, this is it. To John Huff – there’s the difference. You see the Bible as a myth. I see it as Jesus in convenient book form. I believe it to be the Way, the Truth and the Life, you believe it to be simply literature. I wish you nothing but the best. Take care.
Just to weigh in here as a Christian, gay, married (to a woman) man: if God tells me to do something and I don’t do it, that is sin FOR ME. If God tells ME =not= to do something and I do it anyway, then THAT is sin. I have NO IDEA what “sin” is for you, because God isn’t telling me what He is telling you. God didn’t tell me to not be gay anymore. He told me to honor the vows I made to my wife. I told God, “But I’m still attracted to guys.” And God told me, “I know. Can you trust Me?”
A friend passed this on to me. I was a graduate from Olivet in 2001. I never really had the courage to stand up to the discrimination and bigotry around me; I am so happy that you spoke for all of us when you spoke up. I have so many fond memories and close friendships from my time at Olivet. I wish the school could be proud of me for the man I am…unitl that happens, I won’t be back.
Take care! Thanks again!
I hope you can go back someday, Scott. We’ll be welcomed and celebrated at some point, I hope. ‘Til then, let’s live. it. up.
More power to you practicing or no practicing homosexuals. Why would he want to go back?
Just be thankful for fhe good and forget the bad and move on brothers. People who read the Bible literally and unscholarly are never going to change. Don’t waste your time arguing.
There is a possibility that they could change. I did. Through personal experiences, soul searching, and alot of research… not to mention patient friends and family who are gay as well as friends who spoke so sternly to me about my theologically conservative points of view, I finally decided to research “the TRUTH” as I knew it to be. “How”, I thought to myself, “could these Christians – believe something so different from everything I was ever taught”… and thus – my journey began… And that, my friend, is the very short version of how I went from ultra condemning conservative Christian to what OTHERS like to label me as ultra liberal hippie freak loving, gay affirming, socialist – etc etc. I’d like to think, I’m doing my best to follow Jesus, though quite imperfect… I’d like to some up my faith as LOVE.
oops *sum* not ‘some’
Scott, I graduated from Olivet in 1980. I didn’t have the courage to come out, even to myself, until 1985. For years I’ve had a dream of going back and speaking in Chapel, encouraging the student body to open their hearts and minds to our existence, and to God’s reality that we are ALL welcome at His table. I’m encouraged to see that there is at least acknowledgement of LGBT students existing on campus now, and hopefully some good will result from that conversation. For now, I dream, and don’t hold my breath for an invite from anyone there.
No matter what the school may say, know that our heavenly Father IS proud of you!
Blessings, Lynda
Your writing is so moving. <3
Thanks, Vanessa. Let’s get coffee soon.
As a PLNU grad I was really excited to hear about people talking openly about who they are. I heard about this through the grapevine and was hopeful that your honesty would allow for others to be honest about their own lives. I had several friends at PLNU who were gay and who never felt like they could talk about it. While I was a student there was one chapel sermon from Miles McPherson that was so offensive to my friends and myself that we got up and left. As someone who has grown up in the church, I think it’s unfortunate when people forget that Christ called us to love each other in all circumstances. Our decisions and judgment pales in comparison to the God who is bigger than all of us. I applaud your honesty and the way that you have responded to some very closed-minded responses. I could go on about this, but I will leave it at that.
Yes Ashley, I was writing a long minded rant earlier today and thank goodness I lost it somehow on the laptop. I can see the bible thumpers throwing mud my way too if they had read it.
We do have a good resource here in Ron Goetz. I was hoping he would have continued the dialogue with John W recently. I was ready to walk out too.
I am pleased to see you get up and walk out. I hope you were sitting right in front of the poor man.
Hey Ashley,
What did Miles McPherson say that was so offensive to make you get up and leave? I’ve known Miles as someone who really loves everyone and when people were protesting against Prop 8 at his church, the Rock, the members brought the protesters water and food and struck intelligent and loving conversation. I’m not saying that you’re saying this, but just because something is offensive, doesn’t mean that it isn’t true. There is a difference between the wisdom of men and the wisdom of God. Just because something doesn’t make sense to us, that can cause us to make up in our mind things that God would and wouldn’t do. I’m not saying you are arguing this, I’m just addressing the broader argument that some might have In the case of homosexuality. I think it comes down to ones basis of reason and I think It’s dangerous when one bases what they think to be right on their own knowledge rather than something like the word of God or the Bible. Miles, whenever I have gone to the Rock, has always spoken what the Bible says and I really admire him for that. That’s why I was interested as to what he said when you were there.
Hi, I found your blog through a few friends on facebook. I must say, you have a lovely writing style. I am so glad you are finding grace from the Christian community, from your family and from yourself. While, I often don’t understand the lifestyle, it is not for me to condemn, only love like Christ loved. And, from what I can tell, you are a great guy deserving of the grace and friendship he has found in being himself.
Blessings!
What is it you do not understand about ” the lifestyle.” ? What is a lifestyle anyway? Sexual actions? I am an old bachelor never married homosexual and other than being private . I have no differnt “lifestyle” than a straight person. Oh, yes I prefer sexual relatons with younger males. Is this an alternative lifestyle? Who cares?
You are right, I’m sorry for my wording. True, that the meaning of “lifestyle” really has nothing to do exclusively with one’s sexual behavior choices, so it was a poor choice of words on my part….I don’t know how to express what I was trying to say. I apologize if I have offended, as that was not my intent.
No you have not offended me. I thought you were just phrasing it the wrong way. Some people aren’t. So, when I hear this, my face gets red. He He.
I hate the word.
life·style [ lf stl ]
manner of living: the way of life characteristic of a particular person, group, or culture
I think Candice meant ‘lifestyle’ as the Encarta World English Dictionary defines it.
By that definition, I also don’t think it’d be correct to say a homosexual lifestyle matches up exactly with a heterosexual lifestyle. Just to clear up any confusion over the use of the word lifestyle.
To your point, though, I, too, would be confused over what she doesn’t understand about it, but speculation would lead me to believe it stems from her heterosexuality. But otherwise, the way in which she stated her comment was accurate.
Todd- real funny- But in all fairness, Tacky Gays, as the unnamed president referred to, are probably just ones who watch the Jersey Shore and wear white pants at weddings. No double standard there.
Bahahahahah. I’m dyingggggg. ahHAhaha.
oh dont even get me started about the ones that wear socks with sandals!
Oh come on Chip. Tell us please. I need some good laughs tonight.
Hey Todd, not sure if you remember me (the tuba player from Gunn), but I just wanted to say that your writing is so vivid and moving. It must have taken a great deal of courage to confront your problems and advocate who you really are, especially in your position. Very few people have that gift, and very few people have the strength that you do. Please keep writing and advocating! I’ve read all of your posts and look forward to your next story.
~Matt
To. John W.
Yes, I read the Bible as myth. Stories of eternal worth and truth. I also believe the Bible to be the way, the truth, the life.
Please do not say you wish nothing but the best because I don;t believe a word you are saying about your interpretation of scripture and your platitude of just words. When people use this tacky [hrase . I doubt seriously anything thing they say.
Good riddance.
Something cannot be both myth and truth.
Ah, but that is most certainly NOT TRUE! Many of the Bible’s stories are =obviously= not literal accounts of historical events; some are. And many others could go either way. Nonetheless, there is ALWAYS a =spiritual= truth in the story. Take Jonah, as an example. I am so grateful that my salvation does NOT depend on believing that Jonah spent three days in the belly of a literal whale (or other sea creature). There is STILL a spiritual truth in that story: myth, allegory, “fairy tale”, or literal historical event.
Todd told someone early in this thread that they needed to “agree to disagree.” That is a good way to signal to someone that they think arguing will not help. I feel up to debate, but there are a gazillion people willing to argue, and I could be arguing the same five or six points forever. Life is just too short. I am confident of my interpretation of scripture, but there are definite limits to the value of debate. There are better ways to use our time.
Todd is gifted at sharing his experiences with his readers. Judging from the number of reads he’s getting (3000+ yesterday–way to go, Todd!), there are a lot of people interested in reading that a conservative pastor loved and accepted his gay son — without hesitation. He is living proof that conservative theology can be consistent with love and acceptance of gays and lesbians. Living proof, and an example to Nazarene clergy everywhere.
People who have experienced the nurture and love of a Christian community, and then experience difficulties when they come out as gay, respond in different ways. Some leave church for a while, some for a long while. Others are able to find another church family that accepts and loves them.
There are, of course, many other responses.Sometimes the rejection is such a blanket, traumatic experience that the gay or lesbian Christian never wants to step foot in the door of a church ever again. We tend to hear from these angry folks more than others, which is understandable.
What many people don’t understand is that a church community can be a warm, supportive place to make friends and have relationships. The loyalty of gay and lesbian believers to their former churches can seem astonishing.
People who have never experienced the acceptance and nurture of fundamentalist churches should resist judging gays and lesbians who feel loyalty to their former communities. Such judgment results, at least in part, from ignorance and fear. It is easier to hold onto a caricature of “all Christians” or “all fundamentalists” than to even imagine that there could be loving Christians or independent-minded fundamentalists.
Yes, so true. We all make up a coat of many colors. And, did you know there are even a few conservative fundamentatalists left who vote a straight Democratic ticket? Now, that is my type of a person.
I am much more interested in how a . person votes than whether they are anything religious or not. That tells me more than the other. I detest everthing a Republican stands for.
John, your replies in this thread are well thought out and expressed beautifully!
Ron, Thank you for posting Todd’s blog post on my FB page! Having Nazarene missionaries in my family I will help spread spread the word of God’s inclusive love.
Alumni of MVNU and SNU
Todd’s posts tell a personal story that should be heard by as many folks as possible. Y’er welcome, F.G.!
I realize this is an old thread as I have just recently stumbled across Todd’s blog- I am growing a deep respect for Todd as I read through his writing and his humble responses to people who do not agree with his point of view – Further, I’m blown away by his wisdom and understanding of many subjects that took me much longer to understand… though, we are all – always learning and working through this journey of life… I really have no other words… other than… Todd, you are teaching me to respond to negativity in a much more loving and graceful way… thank you. I must also remember where I came from (ultra- condemning-right) and realize that we are all on a journey toward understanding God, Grace, Love, (now, what some would call an ultra liberal hippy gay loving socialist – labels
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[...] “Presidents” Todd comes out to a van-load of Student Body presidents from Nazarene schools around the [...]
Todd, What a great blog post. Thank you for the work you are doing in the COtN. I wish I had known somebody like you when I was a student at BNC. Oops, they call it SNU now. At SNU I wrote for the Echo. I did a book review on “The Lord is My Shepherd and He Knows I’m Gay.” Needless to say, they wouldn’t print it. While at SNU I attended MCC, failed chapel my senior year but they let me graduate. I’ve been a happy Episcopalian for many years. The biggest joy I’ve experienced as an Episcopalian was my trip to New Hampshire to see Bishop Robinson installed as Bishop. He even signed my year book. But I have fond memories of the COtN and the many kind, gentle Nazarenes who were such wonderful folks. But down through the years the denomination has become more political and have known many Nazarenes that put more faith in Rush Limbaugh than Jesus.
Keep on writing. You are doing an important ministry for The Church of the Nazarene.
Yes he is . Gordon, I have some similarities with what you say here. I was always embarrassed to say I attened the Church of the Nazarene as I became of college age. I attened both United Methodist and First Church of the Nazarene in the small town. My maternal ancestors go back the founding of the Methodist Church in America in 1784. Asbury preached the funeral elegy for a descendant.
Dad was an active lay person and long time active member of the Church of the Nazarene. I received a very good grounding in the Weslley faith. I followed by Mother who was a liberal Methodist. I have been a member of the United Methodist Church since my college days.
I have good memories of some good Christian members. The problem I did have was I was a liberal and always knew I wanted to be a Methodist. And, being loyal to my roots and my beloved Methodist maternal Grandfather., I am proud to say I am one today. But here is the problem I am a member of the largest, oldest, and most gothic church in town. The last three ministers I have disliked. We are no longer formal and liturgical and I absolutely abhor informality. Thus, for years I am a communicant at an Episcopal church which I like but I still have the other more informal roots from earlier. I respected my Father, although he was much more conservative than myself. When I announed at his Memorial Serivice at the First Church of the Nazarene to some old family friends that I was a liberal, their eyes went bugged. He He. You know, I always did want to be different. And, so I am still. Proud to be both a practicing (non sexual now) homosexual and a Christian. So, John W, Am I deluded or not? LOL.
When the minister stands in front of the chancel and altar with a Bible and delivers his message, I have had enough. I go a couple times for communion and special services.
So, to get back to the issue. I would never in a blue moon thought that Todd would find himself comfortable to do as he has in this church. So, there is some progressive movement afloat I guess. Man, when I told my Nazarene minister I was having sexual orientation problems, I got the old you need to pray. and get out of that liberal university. Not very encouraging was it/ I imagine he changed some later. It took my Dad decades to get some sense on the issue. A counselor.therapost church friend convild me to not act on it. nced him I did not choose my orientation. He told me it was best to remain celibate. I have for around 30 years. As Todd wrote me recently: “I am done.” So, the long deferred and longed for young/son companion search has now begun.
The computer jumped and messed up again with the above rant. The counselor convinced Dad. and told him the stuff above, Dad said to remain celibate. I think the rest can be deciphered clear enough and frogive the lack of editing too. I just wanted to make a point.
John, What a journey you have been on! I believe in the old saying that “God doesn’t make junk.” Attending MCC when I was at SNU was a blessing for me both spiritually and I was able to have gay friends to support me. God made us who were are as complete people with sexual needs like everybody else. I hope you find a loving companion to share your live with. Me and my partner, Larry, have been together for 25 years. Larry is co-convener of Integrity Palm Beach and I created and run the Integrity Palm Beach Facebook page. If you live in an area that has an Integrity group you might want to attend.
I’m so glad Todd started this blog. It’s bringing many gay Nazarenes and former Nazarene gay men together where we can learn and share.
This rocks. Thank you for writing & sharing and also – thank you for being brave – and saying something.
Just as a curious reader, I would like to bring to light 1 Timothy 1:1-11 which I believe speaks to this whole conversation very directly. I also believe if you read on, as to not take this passage out of context, that Paul brings forward a solution (through grace) that I believe John W was speaking very clearly about.
But I believe for all of our sakes, the greater issue here is making sure that as brothers and sisters in Christ, especially in the midst of disagreement, that we refer to Titus 3:1-11. What would be most devastating would be to allow our disagreements to lead to bitterness and sin in our own hearts towards each other as a result of our dispute on the matter. Therefore, let us remember the biblical model of love that Paul described for us in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7, and move forward with our eyes on Him, instead of our brother and his interpretation.
This is much easier said than done. Sometimes, it is best to agree to disagree and say good riddance. If you don’t. The right wingers will bring you down to their level. Sound haughty? Perhaps? Avoid the appearance of “all evil.” in sheep clothes.
Don’t expect me to follow up on this either.
I am starting the rumor that there is a shekinah blessing of gayness and glitter that is sweeping the campuses of Nazirene Universities across the globe that will spread the gay agenda like the 1970 Asbury Revival spread guilt and the holy spirit. That shit always starts in places like California, unless of course, it started in Wilmore, KY.
.
Why Mr Moug are you so concerned with judging gay people like this? We have all had enough problems as it is to come to accept ourselves as persons of God and each other.
We do not need any more “shit” thrown at us by you. Keep it to yourself please. I am clean just like Todd Clayton and others are clean.
I’m afraid what you’re talking about is no rumor, “Moug.” An outpouring of the Holy Spirit has already been prophesied. Remember, “Moug,” God is not mocked.
In her post titled, “The “(Un)comfortable” Spiritual Blessings and Prophecy on Gay and Trans Christians,” Kathy at Canyonwalker Connections recounts what you’re ridiculing. Check it out here:
http://canyonwalkerconnections.com/2011/12/the-uncomfortable-spiritual-blessing-and-prophecy-on-gay-and-trans-christians/
Todd, that is a great story! Having grown up Nazarene and attending MidAmerica in the 80s, I can SO relate to the whole situation. I used to live in Hillcrest about 5 blocks from that sign and I love those neighborhood signs in San Diego.
Thanks for sharing this experience. I have passed it on to many Nazarene friends who absolutely loved it!
Hey, so the ‘shit” wasn’t flying in San Diego for you? He He
Hurray for being gay at a conservative Christian school! I admire your guts to be ‘Out’ in such an environment.
Legalism can be defined by a circumstance in which people put the strict adherence of the Law ahead of the Law’s purpose. Jesus was COMPLETELY opposed to the legalism that was occurring amongst the Pharisees. They were more interested in making sure the Law was followed word-for-word, instead of grasping the Law’s true message. Jesus summarized this message in Matthew 22:34-40.
“But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ This is the great and [b]foremost commandment. The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
…out of the mouth of Christ.
Let’s face facts: in every portion of scripture, there is a Godly element and a human element, for the simple fact that creatures that are flawed by nature cannot perfectly relay to others the perfect Word of God. The WORDS OF CHRIST tell us that when we become obsessed with details and rules, we have “missed the mark.” For those of you who don’t know, that is one translation of a Greek word that is used for “sin”.
Let’s make sure we’re not missing the mark. ELE (Everyone Love Everyone)
Are you saying that John W cannot convey to all of us and the world what THE WORD OF GOD IS?
LOL!
Amen!!
OK, guys, really. Here’s what I’m saying. God says homosexuality is a sin in BOTH testaments, so it’s sin. Why? Again, because GOD said so, not John W. I’m not condemning anyone who is openly gay, or deals with homosexual feelings. What I’m saying, is since is sin (since the New Testament of the Bible says it is), it is not something that a Christian should partake in. If someone is a murderer or rapist, and claims to be a Christian, I would dispute their claim, and pray for them to shed the murdering or raping lifestyle (there’s that word again!). If they deal with the urge to murder or rape, then at least they’re not engaging in the act, and they’re on the right path. Is being gay tantamount to murder or rape? Not by a long shot, but it is still a sin that the New Testament (that’s the age in which we live today, by the way) says will keep us from the glory God has for us. All I’m trying to do is help. I understand that folks like John Huff will immediately lambaste me for being a “fundamentalist right-wing Bible thumper” or something like that. Well, I guess you’re right. I believe in the fudamentals of Christianity. I believe government should get off my back and stay out of my life as long as I’m not hurting anyone. And I stand on the Bible as the inerrant Word of the Most High God, and as the ultimate love letter from a loving Father to the kids that He came and died for.
I sin. I really do. But at least I recognize my sin (most times). I come to an altar of repentance and give it to Jesus, and sometimes I keep dealing with the same thing over and over again. Paul talked about a “thorn in our flesh” that serves a constant reminder of our need for God’s grace and forgiveness. I have my own thorn, just like everyone else. It seems that for most folks in this thread, your thorn is homosexuality. Don’t mistake the grace of God for the approval of God. God can, and I’m sure does, work through many of you. But that doesn’t mean that you, just like me and everyone else in the world, needs to “die daily” in repentance before God. I love you all, and despite what Mr. Huff thinks, really do wish you all the best in life. Take care!
**I meant to say, in the previous post, “But that doesn’t mean that you, just like me and everyone else in the world, DOESN’T need to “die daily” in repentance before God.” Sorry for not proofreading.
I left the Church of the Nazarene after 40 years as I learned of a more gracious God than I’d ever heard of through Chuck Swindoll’s Grace Awakening’. I went to a Baptist Church because I thought maybe they understood grace more. Hah!I worked in both denominations as a worship leader. My wife and I started a small fellowship and it grew to about 30 people- until I began to understand that God’s grace included gay people and so would we. All the good Christians ($) left because I wouldn’t start a 12 step group to save the gays who came to us. Now I work in education and am damned happy that I am no longer invovled with Christians. I appreciate your candor, Todd, and your writing. Mel White’s ‘Stranger at the Gate’ helped us understand more of the struggles of gay people as did the folks from Open Door Fellowship in Little Rock. A friend online asked me when I decided to become heterosexual. Startled, I realized that it was just there, as it is with gay folks. Another gay friend asked, “Am I saved because I love Jesus or am I damned because I’m gay?” That cannot be the two ends of the spectrum in God’s grace that superabounds!
The ‘translation’ of the words of the New Testament is really a 20th Century interpretation, condemning homosexuality. That word or concept did not exist before the 19th century as people, including Paul did not consider or understand a sexual orietation.It takes a long time to unravel that thread by reading and being open to new thoughts. Many Christians will never understand.
I always thought that if Jesus and the adulterous woman were surrounded by sanctified Nazarenes, she would have been stoned to death in 3 minutes!
“ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God AND (these same people) are justified freely by His grace through the redemption of Christ Jesus.” Romans 3:23-24. All sinned, fell short and are justified. No works or boasting. Even gay people! How about that. Greetings, gay brothers and sisters.
Romans 1:24-25 says:
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Proverbs 3:5-6 says
5Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
6In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.
We are not to rely on human wisdom or the wisdom of man and what makes sense in are own minds. Rather, we are to rely on the wisdom of God and what His word says. The Bible says homosexuality is a sin. Everyone messes up and no one is perfect and without sin. I believe that those who truly know the Lord will be changed and dead to the old lifestyle. Sure people slip. The key is to ask the Lord for help because it’s only by his power that people can live how He wants them to. The Bible is serious about sin. Matthew 18:15-17 says:
15 “If your brother or sister[a] sins,[b] go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’[c] 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
1 Corinthians 5:12-13 says:
New International Version (NIV)
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”[a]
We aren’t called to comfort someone in their living in sin who claim to be Christian. We are to love one another. Loving someone means telling them with a humble heart, the truth, so they don’t get hurt. It is important for Christians to confront others living in sin who claim to be Christian. We are to do so with a humble and loving heart and not a “I’m right you’re wrong mentality.”
Jesus really does love us so much. I myself mess up so much but I’m learning to trust in the Lord and call upon His name and I can only improve with His help and to just focus less on myself and more on others. I am human and I mess up a lot, but with the Lords help, I am learning to rely on Him and live more of the way He wants me to live every day.
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